I like to argue.Maybe you've gathered that. I was on the debate team. I really am a nice guy, though. I hear that everyone in France just sits at little outdoor restaurants all day (at least on the four days a week they aren't working) just arguing really passionately about nothing of consequence. Sounds like a nice place.
I don't think I'm alone. Being a Christian and arguing seem to go hand in hand. However there are a few arguments that are just so silly, they ought to be retired.
I warn you. I may be about to step on your pet argument, your hill to die on. Well tough, I didn't know it was your hill. Keep on fighting the good fight, though. Onward Christian soldiers!
Four Arguments Christians Should Stop Having
Didn't God Create the Earth in Six Literal Days?
I ask: does it really matter if a highly poetic and simplistic passage of the Bible turns out to not be literally true in that one sense? I submit: it does not. Do we argue about what the water was that God was hovering over? Do we argue about how He created light before the sun? No. We argue about how long it took Him to do it.
Sometimes, when Christians feel they're losing the argument for creationism, against evolutionism, they start talking about how the earth is only 6,000 years old. Or how God filled the earth with fake dinosaur bones to fool scientists. Please.
If you want to believe in a six day creation, fine. It could've happened, might not have. He could've created the universe by causing a Big Bang, for all I care. But please don't tie yourself to theories that directly fly in the face of physical evidence. Dinosaurs existed. The earth is really really old. There is no scientifc observation of evolution in process, so you don't need a 'young earth.'
You just got Pwned.
Didn't Jesus Turn Water into Grape Juice, Not Wine?
Coming from a Baptist seminary, I heard this one a lot. A few profs found it essential to waste a class period to give us 'The Talk' about alcohol, complete with proof that the word wine is actually Greek for Welch's 100% Grape Juice (not from concentrate).
Doesn't the Bible forbid wine?
No. Sorry. Every book of the Bible, save for Jonah mentions wine or winemaking in some way. It was a part of the culture Jesus lived in. Hundreds of winepresses have been found in Israel.
But what if everyone just drank juice?
How would they have kept the juice from fermenting? You're in a hot climate with dust blowing everywhere and no refrigeration, it's impossible to not make wine! My pasteurized OJ ferments if it sits in my fridge too long!
But I heard drinking was bad!
Well you actually heard getting drunk was bad, and that's true. The Israelites watered down their wine, both to keep from getting drunk, and to purify the water, which would otherwise make them sick.
So yeah, Jesus turned water into wine, a normal part of his culture. And the parable isn't even meant to emphasize the wine anyway, so quit missing the point. Look, have a glass of wine or don't. It's between you and God.
Now it's on like Donkey Kong.
Aren't We Saved By Grace Alone, Not Good Works?
Yes, even real arguments over theology can have their limits. People who like to argue about this one, many times also enjoy:
Don't We Have Free Will, So How Could We Be 'Elect?'
Or this...
Aren't We Once Saved, Always Saved?
Guess what? I'm going to end these arguments right now. One: You're saved by grace, so get off your bum and do some good deeds, and do it without expecting God to give you a cookie for every good deed you do. Two: Maybe we're 'elect,' but that doesn't give you an excuse to make God do all the work. Three: Wouldn't it be easier to just not 'fall away' in the first place rather than wonder if we can fall away and still be saved?
Summing up the habits of the infinite God in the name of a 16th century Frenchman is absurd.
You just got served.
Shouldn't Christians Just Stop Arguing and Get Along?
Okay, I'll end this argument right now.
No, you're wrong.
Christians steward something that is worth keeping pure, even by disagreeing with people who are wrong. People are always going to have stupid ideas about Jesus, and they'll need a Christian nearby to give them a judo chop of truth to the neck to keep them in line.
Besides, are most Christian arguments really that bad? I mean, look at the Muslims. We got our Inquisition out of the way hundreds of years ago, and they're still firebombing each other! Why? I don't think they even know.
The next time some fancy-pants atheist calls Christians 'brainwashed' or 'kool-aid drinkers' or 'sheep' and calls himself a 'free thinker' to make himself look enlightened, just point out the rich heritage of arguments Christians have. Sheep don't argue, tool.
The only 'Christians' who don't argue at all are Mormons, and that's why they aren't Christians. At my Baptist college, there was a kind of pervasive scent wafting in the air that told everyone to agree at all costs. Someone didn't give these kids the memo that they were Baptists. Trust me, you don't want that non-argumentative Christianity. It was weird.
In your face, sucka!
But, pick your battles. Some of them aren't worth it. And yes, I am aware of the irony that will almost certainly ensue as I spark more arguments over the above points by saying that the arguments are dead.
What's your pet argument? What argument needs to be retired?







35 people say amen!:
Can you be a true Christian if your blog site doesn't mention God everyday?
Or AM I going to hell?
ANd...if you flip your husband off using your pinky instead of the middle finger, is it still a sin?
Give it to me straight, Matt. I need to know.
Another thing to note on the water into wine bit is that the host was impressed that Jesus had made the best wine. Can you really picture someone getting excited like that about non-alcoholic grape juice?
As for the 6 days arguement, i usually cringe when someone starts on creationism because what is about to follow is not usually very smart or well thought out.
Arguments that need to be retired
--------------------------
Christians should only listen to "christian" music.
Christians must homeschool or at very least send their kids to christian schools.
There is only one acceptable day of the week for church meetings.
Ouch. Good one man.
<-SB><
I enjoyed this.
And I answer your judo chop to the neck with Crazy Monkey Stance. {Ha.. who has been pwned now?}
One of my biggest struggles when it comes to conversations is ... music.
I listen to many genres but I try to skip out on the songs that are devaluing or blatantly about enjoying the sinful nature. However, just because I may like a style or song outside of corporate worship doesn't mean that I necessarily find it appropriate for corporate gathering. There are many times that I think we are all about creating an experience the mimics the world in order to attract people instead of trying to actually meet Christ in our midst.
I mean, c'mon, who really needs to hear Baby got Book done to the music of Baby got Back during a church service?
Maybe you do... so here are the lyrics:
Oh my goodness, Becky, look at her Bible
It is so big
She looks like one of those preacher guys girlfriends
But...you know...Who understands those preacher boys
They only talk to her because she looks like Mother Teresa, ok?
I mean her Bible...it's just so big
I can't believe it's so huge
Uggh! It gross!
Look, she's just so...righteous
I like big Bibles and I can not lie
You Christian brothers can't deny
That when a girl walks in with a KJV
And a book mark in Proverbs
You get stoked
Got her name engraved
So you know that girl is saved
It looks like one of those large ones
With plenty o' space in the margins
Oh baby, I wanna read witcha
Cause your Bible's got pictures
My minister tried to console me
But that Book you got makes ("M-m-me so holy")
Ooh, momma-mia
You say you want koinonia
Well, bless me, bless me
And teach me about John Wesley
I saw her prayingWhile I was DJing
She got grace...pretty face
She ain't goin' down to the bad place
I'm tired of heathen guys
Sayin' they like pocket-size
Ask the average Christian to take a look
She's gotta pack much Book
So...Fellas (Yeah), fellas (Yeah)
Has your girlfriend got the Book (Oh yeah!)
Well, read it (Read it!), read it (Read it!), read that Holy Book
Baby got Book
(NIV with a ribbon bookmark)
Baby got Book
(NIV with a ribbon bookmark)
I like 'em leather and bound
It's 50 pounds
I just can't understand
How it is, some weenie
Wants the Bible on CD
She wanna get you saved
Amen! Double up! A-men!
I ain't talkin' about a paraphrase
Cuz Paul wouldn't use those anyways
like 'em real thick and red-letteredYou can't find nothin' betterSouthpaw's in love
Bibles that big are unheard of
So I'm sittin' here thinkin' "What if...
I find me a girl that shows midriff?"
You can have those bimbos
I'll keep those chick that do devos
A word to the Christian sistas
I can't resist yaI'll do God's time witcha
But I gotta be straight when I say I wanna pray
Til the break of day
Baby, got it goin' on
Like the wife in Pro-verbs 31
We just might get engaged
When we finish reading this page
Cuz it's worn and it's torn
And I know this girl's reborn
So ladies (yeah), ladies (yeah)
Do you wanna save people from Hades (yeah) Then read it...'til the pages fall out
Even white preachers got to shout
Baby got Book
(Thompson Chain with big red letters)
Baby got Book
Yeah baby
When it comes to a good book
Stephen King's resume just can't compare
39 + 27 = 66 books
And if you're Catholic...there's even more
So your girlfriend quotes Bill Hybels
But does she got a big Bible?
Cuz that little things she's got won't start a revival
My Bible study don't want none,Unless you got Book, Hon
...You can read Clancy or Grisham
But please don't loose this Book
Some brothers wanna play that hard hard role
And tell you that Book's too old
So they toss it and burn it
And I pull up quick to just learn it
So your girl likes paperback? Well I ain't down with that
Cuz my girlfriend's hot her Bible's rockin'
And she's got good doctrine
To the atheist chicks who try to dis
You ain't it Miss Priss
Give me a Christian, I'm insistin'
And I'll greet her with some holy kissin'
Some pervert tried to chase But he didn't make it past first base
She's quick to resist temptation
And she loves a new translation
So ladies who were lost and found
If you want the triple-six thrown down
Dial 1-800-reads-a-lot
And teach me about those Psalms
Baby got Book
(NIV with a ribbon bookmark)
Baby got Book
(Thompson Chain with big red letters)
Bible college knowledge but she still got Book
Bible college knowledge but she still got Book
Bible college knowledge but she still got Book
Bible college knowledge but she still got Book
Amen! Amen!
The only thing worse than no argument is bad argument for a good cause.
I will take issue with your 6 days position. If animals existed in the world before sin, did they exist for millions of years without death?
I will not question the word of God. If you cant trust one part, why do you have to trust the rest.
I agree that the literal six day argument should be retired for the most part. I did bring that up on my first date with my husband. I figured some things a couple has to agree on BEFORE they have a second date.
First of all - BEST. POST. EVER. (And that's high praise because I really loved the one where you're running around in your dirty underwear.)
Second - Tony, dude. You've written like 3 blog posts today. Seriously, cut and paste.
Third - get a twitter account and start tweeting these post. I'm going to tweet this one. You're welcome.
Look what I've been missing in my absence! Holy crap that was amazing!
I'm all about your argument against the 6-day creation. How ridiculous can we be? And, why do we continuously make kids in school feel alienated during Biology class because they feel they need to stick up for something that's not even remotely proved by science... (6000 year-Earth-life that is).
Um, my pet argument is actually one that you claimed to shoot to death earlier, (predestination). More because I work with a bunch of people that are totally reformed and won't really even hear me out about it... but, I'm like you, I like to argue. (And that's a good one.) I think the best way to end the argument though is to just state that God is so much bigger than we wind up giving him credit for.
I guess my only other pet argument is: language. But, that one can be put to rest pretty quickly if you're saying anything bad against anyone else or causing anyone to sin. It's just that sometimes... it's funnier. haha!
What katdish said.
Plus, was the "drunk" definition .08%? Was a buzz ok? Hypothetically, of course, as a public service to the lightweights out there.
You should do a cage match between differing theological viewpoints like you did with the mega-church evangelists! Now that would be entertaining!
My wife has a book that explains that the dinosaurs died in the flood. There is nothing more hilarious than seeing Noah turn away the velociraptors at the door of the ark.
I assured my wife my children would never read this book, unless it was to read it cheekily.
Justin (about the 6 days and death).
Could I challenge your presumption that death is a result of sin?
What if God made a perfect creation that was able to die? We were created "just a little lower than the angels" after all.
Before the fall, the first couple ate fruit (not the bad kind), thus killing it.
You totally crack me up, Matt.
Actually, I've been very unimpressed with the "science" behind both sides of the 6-day/evolution/old earth thing. And what little science does come out is rather inconclusive and depends highly on who you're talking to. Which is my big reason why the argument should stop: It doesn't really matter a hill o' beans which position is right and no one is the clear victor yet. But it sure is fun to argue about [smile]. And that little bit of science really is interesting.
I will take issue with your statement of "And the parable isn't even meant to emphasize the wine anyway, so quit missing the point." Considering it gives you the amount of wine (120-180 gallons) I think at least one point is to emphasize the huge quantity of wine. As one of my favorite Bible profs pointed out: This is an indication that Christ fulfills of Old Testament prophecy, and that He is bringing in the Kingdom of God. (Joel 3:18 may have been one of them, but I don't have my class notes in front of me [smile])
Oh, I'm arguing! Look at what a good Christian I am [laughing].
~Luke
Yup, I agree. Best. Post. Ever.
I'd like to see all those arguments go away as well. Although, I find the "literal six days" and "young earth theory" SO much fun. It will be hard not to fling that on my non-believing friends anymore just to rile them up.
Uh-oh. Did I just pubically mention I have non believing friends? Don't tell anyone else that I fraternize with the heathens...
I agree with Joanna, in that the argument over "christian" or "secular" music needs to die. Now there is some music that we probably shouldn't let our nine year olds listen to (it's odd hearing "from the windoooooooooow, to the wall!" from a fourth grader), but for the most part the term "christian" music is merely a marketing ploy that has backfired repeatedly.
Another is the argument that the "rock beat" is "demonic". Although that argument does make me want to do unholy things to the people arguing it (perhaps to the sound of Demon Hunter), so maybe there is some validity to that :-P.
I am not sure that I agree that "all" of those arguments should be retired. The creation one should be, because it is simply us trying to find validity in the eyes of the world.
However, the other three need to be argued, if only to cause people to think through their own lives and how they are going to address those situations. An argument over wine vs. grape juice brings about a good conversation about what moderation and liberty have to say to our culture. The "grace or works" and "election" arguments can broaden our view of God, when we realize that pre-destination and free will are only mutually exclusive in our existence, with our current limitations... limitations that do not apply to God.
The "Shouldn't all Christians stop arguing and get along?" should be adjusted to "Shouldn't all Christians learn to discuss and argue without being pompous tools?" And that argument needs to be had, with the overwhelming answer being "yes, Christians should not be tools."
Bravo!!!
Richard...
" 'Shouldn't all Christians stop arguing and get along?" should be adjusted to "Shouldn't all Christians learn to discuss and argue without being pompous tools? '"
That's pure genius man!! Seriously. That should be on t-shirts and headers of all church bulletins.
If we get to be tools, I want to be an impact wrench because there are entirely too many nuts running around loose that need to be secured.
That guy preaching about men standing up to pee against walls would qualify for a loose nut. I watched a couple of his videos and needed my WWJD glow-in-dark-rosary in order to make it through the night. I turned all my Saints faces around though because they all looked 'concerned' under that soft yellow glow which was a bit disconcerting.
I nearly scared the devil out of myself when my footed pajamas rubbed against my blanket and caused an static electric storm under my covers that looked like Mount Olympia had gathered for a contest.
I did have a 'spark' of creativity while I was experiencing this terrible night... I should create Manjamas - Pajamas for Men. Maybe I will write a post on it.
I'll open by admitting there are a lot of really bad "scientific" arguments for young-Earth creationism, and a lot of really ignorant people advocating them (though I'll also say there are some decent ones, with some thoughtful and reasonable people behind them). But I'm not so sure that particular argument should be retired. The issue I have (and I'm open to hearing alternative explanations) is that of original sin. Christian theology depends on the idea that "all have sinned" - that we, as humans, are incapable of meeting God's standard of righteousness. This we attribute to the original sin of one man, Adam (and Eve of course as well - we're equal opportunity sinners), propagating through all of humanity. Romans 5:12-21 is a fairly relevant passage - Paul seems to be going after the idea that one man (Jesus) was needed to fix the failure of one other man (Adam). Adam and original sin fits very easily into a literal interpretation of Genesis - I have yet to hear a convincing treatment of this issue from an old-Earth perspective.
good stuff. I'm with you- I don't think arguing over things that we can't know is helpful or at all productive. Why can't there be a little mystery? If you don't like that, you don't know God!
You freaking rock! I love you're matter-of-fact way of telling it like it is.
And I grew up in a Baptist church. There was definitely no non-arguing in that joint. People would argue over the temp of the baptismal water.
Great comments everyone! It appears you still have some fight left in you after all!
Sherri, I would play it safe. The more God, the safer. But I like the pinky flip. It's like saying 'Gosh darn it to H-E-double-hockey-sticks!'
Joanna - good point. No one except children get excited about grape juice.
Tony - I guess I have to say thank you for sharing. Had not heard that song. I looked up the video, it's pretty funny. But no, we don't need to convert every song to Jesus.
Justin, good point. My point with creation is that there just isn't enough evidence on either side to have an effective argument. Maybe I might as well believe in 6 day creation, but I think I'm stepping over the line by insisting that it is 'obviously' literally true. I do believe God did it, and I think that's the important part.
Katdish, thank you. Maybe we'll talk about Twitter soon...maybe.
Bman, welcome back. Missed you!
Luke, you make a good point. The story is quite rich, and there are many emphases we can take, since John doesn't interpret the event for us.
One Catholic nun asked the class "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" Our class clown, David, blurted out "Only a pinhead knows for sure".
He was sent to the corner to stand.
Say, is a proper baptism by sprinkling, or do you need dunked?
Say, repent, be baptised, and saved!
(How did the thief on the cross do all that between "Jesus take me with you"
"Okey Dokey"
and death?
The guy went to heaven, but I doubt he was sprinkled or dunked.
Saw this major query recently:
"Jesus Follower, Christians are your family. Are you going to disown them?"
I suspect it depend if they live in a red state or blue state.
God wants to prosper YOU!
(Oh really, here I have been wasting my time working when God is my ATM)
Dad, what is an immaculate contraption? (true)
If Adam sinned, then all men sinned.
If the whale vomited Jonah, are all men vomit?
How can a christian vote for a pro choice candidate?
If you are pro life, prove it by adopting a bunch of unwanted kids. Otherwise, shut up.
(but if I adopt your unwanted kid, doesn't that make me responsible for your personal behavior?)
If both teams in every Super Bowl pray to God to win, and the Steelers have the most wins to date, is God a Steeler fan?
First of all, what is "pwned?" I'm probably not in the groove somehow, but I don't know that non-word.
Second of all, my "pet" argument (I take it out for a walk, I feed it):
God's power didn't end with the early church and the apostles. Jesus' healing power is meant to be manifest in our lives today, as it was then. He said we are to do the works He did and even greater works.
Though many don't argue too much with this, yet there is resistance to the idea that we are to truly experience God's power and walk away from sickness and disease. Many want to hold onto disease as a necessary thing, as a lesson from God, or just find it too good to be true that God would wipe it away.
I want to refute that.
First, Keystone-yes He is a Steelers fan; even before they were the Steelers. :)
Secondly, I think a good arguement/debate is good for all Christians.
I believe it helps us to go back and study just a little more and asking God more questions than we do.
Blessings.
love this post. hilarious.
as i sit here listening and enjoying country music - the music one should be retired.
God created musicians, thus creating music for us to enjoy. Period.
We are saved by grace so we GET to do something nice for others. We GET to...we didn't have to be crucified so suck it up and do something for your neighbor.
I disagree with some of my very best friends on some things. We "agree to disagree". :-)
I'm off to go have a glass of wine - real wine - not juice.
Nice post. I would probably add lots of things to your argument list. We can argue about whether or not God is approving of homosexuality if we must, but we should stop arguing about whether or not gay marriage should be legal. Marriage is a civil rights issue, not a religious one.
Hmmmmm....
Science v Scripture
I'll go with scripture!
But all in all good stuff.
Here I am, late to the party as usual. Great post Matt, and again, great comments. Gotta say though, I really like my Welch's. Grown ups can get excited over it. :)
Funny thing I'm picking up here, and maybe it's just me. Is there a sense here that the things we think are silly disagreements are those where we think we have won the argument already?
Some things really aren't worth the debate - it is what it is regardless of what I believe about it. But I'm sure picking up more than that here.
I hear in the discussion here that "it's not worth the argument because I already know I'm right."
I don't know.
And not that I don't like a good verbal sparring. This comes from one who still has a National Forensic League and "outstanding senior debater" plaque collecting dust somewhere.
I get annoyed when I hear these theological arguments break out. It's not necessarily for me to straighten out your theology, it's not for you to do the same to me. Sometimes they seem more about proving that you're well read and intelligent and can hold a side of an argument then any real benefit to either party, God, or the wider community.
Ultimately it's for God to set the theology out for us. We have the Bible, ministers, churches, life experience etc.. He has his methods and knows how to use them. I prove nothing via an argument, and learnt that a painful way, so I just go along and smirk whenever I hear two Christians launching up into an argument...
"did you know that bla bla bla" ;)
*Smirk and hide face*
Amen to this Matt
Amen!
I'm late to the game here, so my comment might not even be seen, but here goes anyway.
"I ask: does it really matter if a highly poetic and simplistic passage of the Bible turns out to not be literally true in that one sense?"I would suggest that yes it does matter. Whether you interpret the Bible literally or not affects your entire theology. Until recent years, it wasn't even an argument. Christians accepted the literal 6 days. It wasn't until modern day Christians decided to started to mixing science (unreliable) with scripture (reliable) that the question even came up.
"And the parable isn't even meant to emphasize the wine anyway, so quit missing the point."It's not a parable. It's an account of Jesus' life. It makes a difference in how we understand it and apply it.
Shouldn't Christians Just Stop Arguing and Get Along?Now this is one thing I can agree with you about. I see this all the time. Famous "Christian" leaders can spew all sorts of heresy and the moment somebody calls them on it, there is a group of people saying "Stop arguing and just get along!" Jesus called out the pharisees. Paul called out the Galations, the Corinithians, and even Peter. And we need to do the same.
(And by the way, to answer your question, that last one is my pet peeve argument).
Chuck, thanks for a thoughtful comment. It's never too late! I appreciate your angle, and agree with you on just about everything.
Amen! Just found your site through stuff christians like, and I'm glad I did.
My high school teacher always said that when science and scripture seem to disagree, we need to study both more. God wrote the Bible, but He also wrote truth into the world, so we can't ignore scientific evidence. To entirely ignore science implies that God didn't create the world, or did so with the intent to trick us.
In addition to the music thing, we also need to stop the argument over LoTR/Narnia/Harry Potter/World of Warcraft/etc. Lumping every single mention of magic together as "witchcraft" is stupid. (LoTR and Narnia used to be immune, having been written be Christians, but I've seen several people online putting them in the same category with the rest of fiction.) Don't read them if you don't want to or feel convicted not to, but don't tell me I'm committing witchcraft and devil worship by reading fantasy novels.
Also, I've seen a *bunch* around sexuality. I won't list them here in case of younger people - just check out themarriagebed.com or sensuouswife.com if you're curious.
Just found this while reading through your archives - loved it! Especially after church last week when our worship leader he played the ol' Can't-We-Just-Get Along card (no doubt in response to my posts on tithing).
If Christians didn't argue about anything, we'd still be buying indulgences and kissing the pope's ring.
Keep up the good work, Matt - I love reading your stuff . . .
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